Curse

Schorny · Oct 24, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Any hex can get removed quickly, what's your point?

Exactly that is the point: your hexes will get removed most of time instantly. You can cover them - sure, but there are only 2 hexes I'd bother removing: Shame and SoF.

Quote:

The ele waits a few seconds? That's A LOT of free time my monk DOESN'T need to heal damage away.

That is wrong. An ele dishes out damage based on his energy. He can dish out medicore damage all the time or spike damage at specific times. With guilt you just force him to spike - no loss in damage.

As I said, this skill alone won't shut him down. It's a minor annoyance, nothing more.

Quote:

Making someone wait a few precious seconds [or casting giving me energy] is win-win. Few seconds is enough for my team to save energy healing. Ele does no damage, I don't need healing.

It's a stalemate situation, I explained why...

Quote:

I've tried res sig as a mesmer. Everyone's targetting me and I get interrupted at the drop of a hat. Especially when they see the res sig (which isn't affected by my fast casting) I don't like res sigs on myself because of this. I know it's good to have even though it gets interrupted but I'd rather disrupt them first...

Then maybe a fastcast hard res?

But in 4on4 you really need a res, or do you expect your monks to res?

Quote:

I've posted tons of builds and have recieved MANY good questions asking me for tips and tricks. Maybe YOU should be the one to think... How many pms have YOU recieved asking for help?

I cannot judge the pms you get, but I surely can judge the feedback you receive public - and it's obvious what this is like.

The problem is: you are posting a build - one posts suggestion how to improve and all you do is defending your build. Why post in the first place?

As you can see I'm not alone with my critic, so it doesn't matter how many pms I get or how big my house is.

Quote:

oh, before I forget, to efficiently shut down a non-caster you need only 2 skills. If you need more than that... uh..

YOUUU SSSUUUUCCKK!!!

Good argument.
Why do I bother helping you?

Helping - yes. That is what we do here in a forum. You post a build and want suggestions - we help and post critic on how to improve it. But you are not even try to fit the suggestions in your build or explain why they won't fit - all you do is defending your build. But noone's attacking you. You want to help, so take our help or leave it.

Divine Elemental · Oct 24, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

why 10 in curses if all you do is enfeeble and pbond?

and why all the inspiration if you dont take any of the staple emanagement like power drain or drain enchantment? spirit of failure is good if you use other things that make them miss. i saw someone use that with spitefull spirit for total warrior hate...

There We Go

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 24, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

omg, freakin' site logged me out and I lost all my post!!!

Ok, in order to save myself some misery of retyping my logic behind this build. I'll post it here in short form...

I need to be able to use these 3 things in a fight.

Interrupt/Hex Disruption
Energy Management
Conditions Disruption

My suggestions I've recieved from here and elsewhere have me using this for a modified blender build:

Arcane Echo
Power Block {E}
Guilt
Leech Signet -> the Interruption disruption set

Leech Signet
Spirit of Failure -> the energy management set

Guilt
Spirit of Failure -> Hex disruption set. Guilt interrupts as well giving it a convenient dual role. SoF disrupts as well as grants energy also a dual role.

Enfeeble
Plague Touch -> the conditions disruption set. Low energy and fast recycle/casting skills make them efficient.

Parasitic Bond -> black sheep of the build. I'm sure we could probably replace it with Res Sig or what you'd suggest if we dont' think a cover hex would be needed.

Total build?

Arcane Echo, Power Block {E}, Guilt, Leech Signet, Spirit of Failure, Plague Touch, Enfeeble, Parasitic Bond

Stats remain the same.

I don't want this to turn into a countering counter counter flame war so I'll just leave those posts alone.
Instead of smashing how bad a skill/build is, please post GOOD suggested skills instead [this skill is bad just like this and this and that skill are...] That just shows that all you'd rather do is waste time rather than post that precious "BETTER" skill...

I also apologize for my rude behavior because, well, nobody was posting HELPFUL comments [unless people believe that saying that skill won't work is helpful]. Saying that this skill sucks and that THIS SKILL is a good substitute is what anyone wants to see.

Thanks for your time...

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 24, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

As for point 2, against most people in the current meta-game youll need a variety of hexes and a cover. 2 is minimum.... images for warriors, shackles for rangers, then usually you want shadow or faint, then parasitic and so on for the cover. You could shutdown a warrior with 2, but in a meta game that has large amounts of hex stackers, 2 isnt going to go the distance. In optimum, you want to force a convert onto them and then recast 10s later... or have them looking at a completely ineffective character. 2 might do that, but its not going to force anyones hand, and they wont be out of the game enough for my personal defense heavy liking.

Those are good ideas. I love this part of the post. Problem I see is that it's more energy heavy then what I've posted. Think there's a way to keep these hexes going strong in the energy intensive mix?

rii · Oct 24, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

try this:

spirit of failure
price of failure
soothing images
spirit shackles
shadow of fear
parasitic bond
signet of humility
ressurection signet

.....
your prot monk is running guardian right

??

theres nothing there that isnt obvious, and sof gives big energy at 14 inspir (5 energy per miss - every miss) price on a frenzy warrior kicks ass (around 50dps... 40 per attack) and on three warriors your already pressuring their monks without hitting them once.

whatsmore your stacking crap over that. shadow of fear screws over sof and pof but the effect is still large.... the cost is greater than the loss.... 50% attack rate is 50% less spike.

Images utterly screws axes, hammers, and sword (spikes). Never leave home without it.
Shackles denies ias, sprint, res sig if you bother to put up primal echoes (an overlooked idea).... o yeah it denies rangers too

parasitic is your cover, fast casting, in fact sometimes apply it as the second hex, everything even with fast casting is still not enough, you might end up with something nice being removed. Go images/shackles then para, then follow with eveything else. Also useful for breaking hex breaker, and simply mass hexing a team. If a monk with remove sees a bar full of purple, even if its only -1 pip hes going to panic if he's not gosu -.-

o yeah, and humilty on the hammer warriors. 14 inspir is 15s duration, just like the good old days.... no devastating = no kd chain = happiness for you. or take evis... then no spike... although people often take 2 copies (by that i mean.... top20...-.-)

hf

EDIT: and yes im aware there isnt an elite.... maybe i dont want one

put in spiteful spirit for pof if you really want... if i remember pof is 10e vs 15e for spite.... which is cheaper ftw

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 24, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Great post rii, though I want to be able to just use a few of the non-caster skills and then devastate the casters... Well, I thought of one skill nobody mentioned that pretty much screws any type of class [searches whole post]. Yep, nothing there...

Diversion.

Arcane Echoed Diversion = utter rapage...

So much for innovation. It's either a cookie cutter build, a modified cookie cutter build, or a shitty build, plain and simple. Why? Because that's how the elite work I guess... I'll be glad to be called a lame-o cookie cutter modifier then. Why? At least my skills are proven to work.

Soothing images/Price of Failure sounds fun... But how to work this through...
Well, re-revising the build I get this!

Arcane Echo
Power Block {E}
Diversion
Leech/Res Signet
Spirit of Failure
Enfeeble/Price of Failure
Parasitic Bond
Rend Enchantments

This is going by the 'perfect' metagame assumption that your monks are competent, your team is competent, and the enemy is competent. (almost never possible because human error and internet latency is everyone's worst nightmare...)

I've decided to literally tear the most out of my curses so I've given into Rend. Ah rend, how I love thee...

Res Signet is a viable option if you're one of the 3-4 people in an 8v8 group that HAVE to have the res sig. If you're going on a team that has 8 res sigs, you're going to regret it. Metagame plain and simple...

Leech Signet is both an energy manager for free [yay] and the best part, IT INTERRUPTS EVERYTHING!!! MUAHAHAHAH. So what if it's not a spell? ^_^ NO X skill for j00... I was thinking of Cry of Frustration but a free interrupt is better I suppose vs. an energy intensive one.

Reason why I'm split between Price of Failure and Enfeeble is that at least with enfeeble, the enemy is forced to deal with hex and condition simultaneously and that enfeeble won't fall prey to convert hex since hex stacking is now prevalent. [yay for nerfed Nature's Renewal...] If the enemy has to deal with both hexes/conditions, more work for them right?

I'm curious as to Arcane Echo. I love the skill too much but what would you recommend would replace it? Can't ever have too many diversions or Power Blocks can you? ^_^

twicky_kid · Oct 24, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Great post rii, though I want to be able to just use a few of the non-caster skills and then devastate the casters... Well, I thought of one skill nobody mentioned that pretty much screws any type of class [searches whole post]. Yep, nothing there...

Diversion.

Arcane Echoed Diversion = utter rapage...

diversion was in my post earlier, anyways. it seems like you don't know what you are aiming for. your first post could handle many different classes. this new one can only hand 1 type. ranger or warrior. only thing you have for casters is diversion and power block. diversion is iffy. its only if the caster is a complete IDIOT do you cast through diversion. its a set 6 seconds so i know i can wait. power block is fun but you chances of interrupting anything <1 seconds.

just name your role first. then start the building.

main thing i notice about this forum is there is only 1 character of a group named. this makes it very difficult to gauge a build. if your team is built for it then it will do well. seeing only 1 piece of the puzzle at a time doesn't give me a good idea of how it would work.

rii · Oct 24, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

yes. ranger and warriors are 1 type of class -.-

in a team, you have three monks, 2 heal 1 prot, you have 3 warriors, 2 evis 1 kd chain, and then you have 2 slots left. This fits nicely with offensive shutdown and defensive shutdown. Some people like to put buffers in, but whatever.

smurfhunter · Oct 24, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

diversion USED to be good when it had a nice recharge. then you would have a domination mesmer spend the entire time spreading diversion and annoying spells like shame.

right now, since diversion was nerfed, i dont think diversion spam will work, arcane echo or not. if you divert one skill on your opponents skill bar its great and all, but for diversion to work it really has to be persistant. and even if you somehow manage to duplicate it so that its persistant, its still not enough, you need to do something else besides diversion spam.

so right now i dont see it as that great of a skill to use. its alot like the shame/guilt spell in that its 10 energy and stops most people from casting for 10 seconds (or w/e), but shame is still better because its somewhat worse to get shamed _once_ than to be diversioned _once_

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 25, 2005, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

but shame is still better because its somewhat worse to get shamed _once_ than to be diversioned _once_

I don't get it. Shame's recharge vs. Diversion's nerfed setups still lean somewhat in diversion's favor.

But I guess the fact that Shame STOPS a spell while Diversion lets the spell fly through could be a deciding factor.

Depending on who has diversion determines how good it is. If a monk has diversion, once they heal, they won't see that same spell for quite some time... So casting through diversion vs. casting through shame becomes objective...

What's better? A long skill lock [after skill saves a teammate]
or
A temporary interruption of a skill that might be spammable?

Tough choice.

Btw, Diversion shuts down warrior and ranger skills too. Adrenal skills don't gain any adrenaline. Oath Shot is the ranger anti-diversion skill I suppose.

Spirit+Price of Failure should rock for non-casters since they're attackers anyway and should cause a chunk of both damage and energy management. [will I diversion their remove hex? I hope so. Power Blocking it would rock too.]

I'm starting to get better and better at spotting 1s. cast time skills. It's those 3/4 cast skills that are a big itch... I still dislike babysitting so a hex or two isn't out of the equation.